{"id":299,"date":"2025-01-15T15:22:18","date_gmt":"2025-01-15T15:22:18","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/landscape-practice.local\/?post_type=article&p=299"},"modified":"2025-03-01T08:14:30","modified_gmt":"2025-03-01T08:14:30","slug":"it-is-all-about-openness","status":"publish","type":"article","link":"https:\/\/landscapepractice.com\/fr\/research\/it-is-all-about-openness\/","title":{"rendered":"It Is All About Openness"},"content":{"rendered":"\n
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About intuition, prototyping, and the subjective understanding of participation \u2013 a conversation with Bert Busschaert from the Belgian Studio BASTA, by Marta Tomasiak.<\/em><\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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Bert Buschaert:<\/em> Where shall we start?<\/span><\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n
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Marta Tomasiak:<\/em> Maybe at the very beginning, the beginning of BASTA. How did it all happen?<\/span><\/div>\n <\/h2>\n
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BB:<\/em> BASTA is five years old now, and we started at school. Kenny and I met in the Netherlands, where we both studied landscape architecture. And that was really necessary to understand landscape and to see it as the \u2018big picture\u2019. Many schools consider landscape to be very local and narrow, but it always starts with good education \u2013 you should always think about the landscape as a whole. That\u2019s a good starting point. Then, let\u2019s say, we drank beer together, worked on projects at school, and discovered ELASA \u2013 the European Landscape Architecture Student Association.<\/p>\n

We went to one of their meetings, and at the time, we didn\u2019t know what it was. We met a lot of colleagues from across Europe. For us, rooted in the Western European context, knowing countries like France, Belgium, England, and Spain very well, it was a great experience to meet people from Central and Eastern European countries \u2013 Hungary, Serbia, Poland, and a whole bunch of others. It was really eye-opening, mind-opening. And for us, it all started there, at ELASA.<\/p>\n

Then we met Le Balto there. They gave a lecture on temporary installations in urban spaces \u2013 what they do, how they interact with people. It was something very fresh for us: that landscape architecture doesn\u2019t always have to be about big projects with stone and huge budgets in the traditional way. What they showed us was something completely different, something that touches your senses.<\/p>\n

So, education in the Netherlands and then meeting at ELASA and Le Balto were very much our starting points \u2013 the beginning of a broader view. And then, yes, we met Wagon, and we worked together. All the things we saw, we brought back home and started some projects here. So, the first project was a hospital, where we began with the idea of urban wastelands, rebuilding them through small-scale interventions with a small budget and an open-minded approach to working. We were also interested in participation, yes. But participation has become such a buzzword now.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> Yes, it is. I don\u2019t know how it is in Belgium or in your environment, but I have the feeling that no one knows exactly what it means, or rather, everyone has their own definition of participation.<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> Yes, indeed. Everybody has their own interpretation. Let\u2019s say from the start, we were very much interested in this.<\/span><\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n
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MT:<\/em> And what does it mean for you? What is BASTA’s definition of it?<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> It is an openness to the people you work with. It\u2019s about being open to listen to them, to talk to them, to present your thoughts and ideas, to think together, and to debate your plans. It\u2019s about telling them what is going to happen, inviting them to help, and to build. It\u2019s about openness. That\u2019s really the key word for me. Participation is not obligatory \u2013 you can be involved if you want. I gave a presentation to the provincial government about participation just two weeks ago.<\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> So, you\u2019re becoming participatory design experts in Belgium? Giving lectures…<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> [laughs] We are not experts, we\u2019re definitely not participatory design experts.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> Rather practitioners?<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> Voil\u00e0. We do it from the gut.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> Okay, but one of your projects, in Rabot, in Ghent \u2013 it\u2019s a beautiful story of participatory design. It happened quite early in your career. You were, what, 2-3 years old as BASTA when it started? Tell me the story.<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> Yes, exactly. We were quite young in our career. So, there was a neighborhood in Ghent that was very wealthy back in the day, but now it\u2019s a rather poor district. A lot of people moving in \u2013 it\u2019s a transit zone for many immigrants, many foreigners arriving in Belgium. They go to live in Rabot; some of them stay there, while others move on very quickly. So, you have new inhabitants and Ghent residents who have lived in the area for a long time. And they\u2019ve seen their neighborhood decline. Urban spaces were developed in a negative way. Benches were taken out, playgrounds were removed \u2013 all for reasons of \u201csocial security,\u201d let\u2019s say. And so Dimitri, who works for the city’s social services, came to us with the project.<\/p>\n

In Ghent, all the city services work closely together. The workers from different city departments collaborate a lot. Dimitri had a very small budget and a project to rebuild the urban space, and he really wanted to change the environment of Rabot in a positive way. To put benches back in, to bring back the playgrounds. So he came to us, and that\u2019s how we started. And all of this was supposed to happen in a participatory way \u2013 both in the design phase, the construction phase, and the maintenance phase. And that was the beginning.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> So they asked you for one small intervention at the beginning, but in a way, you redesigned the way of thinking about the project? You turned it upside down by proposing a very different process instead?<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> Yes, it was a small budget to start with, just one intervention, one thing to do. But there was also the City of Ghent\u2019s master plan for this part of the city. So they were focused on large-scale thinking; they had a lot of analyses about this neighborhood and its surroundings. In the beginning, we felt like we were doing double work. All these analyses we had, all these top-down ideas \u2013 \u201cbig structures\u201d \u2013 that thinking was already done. We said we would begin at the bottom, rethink small spaces. In this way, we created 1:1 models to try things directly in the urban space, to make new temporary designs, temporary interventions.<\/p>\n

So, when the designers who are thinking about the neighborhood\u2019s future on a large scale, in 10 years, come to implement their design, they should see what we have already tried. We tested several things, and then they could be inspired to create more durable projects, learning from what we did. What we did was temporary \u2013 low-cost materials, interventions planned for 5-10 years at most. So that\u2019s what I meant when I said we started from the bottom. The master plan \u2013 they\u2019re thinking on a large scale, and over time, we were supposed to meet at some point with our bottom-up project. So that was the main idea behind the project. The neighborhood was quite large, and we had the idea of doing it piece by piece every year. We had a general plan for the neighborhood, and we could move step by step with the interventions.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> But what I find really interesting is that you – landscape architects, people who were asked for the project – changed the investor\u2019s way of thinking. You were asked for a small intervention, and you came up with a long-term project that transforms spaces throughout the area. No one asked you to do it. Was it hard for you to encourage the municipality to get on board? Of course, these are temporary interventions you\u2019re working with, but at the same time, it was a project that was supposed to last a good couple of years, right? Are you finished already? Or are you still doing some interventions?<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> No, not anymore. I think it\u2019s done, more or less. We \u201cdid\u201d a lot of spots in this neighborhood. I think it was a good start, good work, and now the job is to maintain it well. Then we can build on.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> I think of this project as a testing ground, a laboratory. You tested a couple of things to see what works and what doesn\u2019t in the space. And they can use this knowledge for durable design.<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> Voil\u00e0. And I also think spatial tests like this one shouldn\u2019t be just about building. It\u2019s not always about building in order to have things grow or move on. Maintenance, use, and all these little things are great signs that a project is moving forward. If we build again, and the residents don\u2019t use it, and it\u2019s not maintained, then we should stop.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> But how is it in Ghent? Have you actually seen the process of people becoming more and more involved in the project? The interventions happened every couple of months, and you were there for about a week or so? From my perspective, because I was there two or three times with you, I noticed that people treated you more and more as one of them. Throughout the project, you became members of the community. Have you also seen a change in how people use the space as the project developed?<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> Well, we don\u2019t see it a lot, as we\u2019re not based in Ghent and don\u2019t live there. So, we can\u2019t say we see what\u2019s happening on a daily basis. But sometimes, when we were there, we had the feeling there wasn\u2019t enough attention to maintenance. I think it was due to complications. But I saw that they started again with maintenance, and I think it\u2019s going well over there. I can\u2019t imagine this project would be considered a bad idea. Just small-scale things \u2013 if they maintain it and use it, I think it can\u2019t be wrong.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> And also because the design came from the people, since you consulted all the design proposals, right?<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> Yes, we did. There was this dog space design that we changed two days before construction.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> Why is that?<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> Well, there was a big block of flats under construction, and the garden was just around this block. Nobody had said anything during the consultation, because there were no residents yet. I remember, I went there two days before the intervention was planned to happen, just to check everything on site, to see if we could start. Then, there was a lady on the first floor of this brand-new building, moving in. Her boxes were in the apartment. So we started talking, and she asked what we were doing. I explained, and then she said she really liked the project, but didn\u2019t want dogs to be there, just in front of her windows.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> So you reacted. Did you change the location for the dog space? Did the intervention happen as planned?<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> Yes, actually, the dog space was moved to the other side of the area.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> Two days before the intervention. Was the construction delayed?<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> No, it went as planned. And we had to do it this way. Her point was clear, and she was right \u2013 it was a bad idea. And yes, if you do a lot of analysis of the space and you have all this data, you have all the pieces of the puzzle. Sometimes, you just need to put them in another way than you thought you would. So, you just have to keep your mind open and be reactive because situations like this happen. And if you react, then everything \u2013 all the pieces of the puzzle \u2013 fall into place. Some time later, this lady had another complaint about something else, but we didn\u2019t agree, so it stayed as it was supposed to. We didn\u2019t do it the way she wanted. And I think that\u2019s also participation: reacting to what happens, in a positive or negative way. If you don\u2019t react, then there\u2019s nothing participatory about it.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> Do you think the Rabot project was a bit of a cultural project? Like a cultural animation thing? A big part of you being on site was talking to people, encouraging them to build together, take a hammer or a saw, or plant trees with you? So, in a way, you were there playing the role of animators, or people who activate the site. Is that how you think of the project?<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> Well, I understand the idea, but I don\u2019t like thinking of our work there in those terms. If you say \u00ab\u00a0animator\u00a0\u00bb or \u00ab\u00a0cultural animator,\u00a0\u00bb I understand it as someone who keeps kids or adults busy. And this is a concept we do not support at BASTA. It\u2019s a waste of time and money. It\u2019s this kind of thinking \u2013 keep them busy so they won\u2019t complain. What we do isn\u2019t animation \u2013 we want to change things. There are some studios that do cultural animation, as I understand it. They go with some plants and tools, dig, plant, take pictures, and then leave. It\u2019s a short-term thing for them.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> It\u2019s not about coming and being there for a few hours and disappearing afterward. Because those people stay there. It\u2019s rather about building a relationship with the locals, working with them, and for them.<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> Let\u2019s say a carnival is animation, a party is animation, and yes, we did some animation in Ghent. But we\u2019d rather disagree, discuss, and debate, than just please and entertain the residents.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> Was it a challenge for you when the Rabot project started? It involved so many different people. I know that when you had all those consultation meetings, you always had translators, and people from the municipality were always present. There were so many different disciplines involved in the project. Was it challenging because of that?<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> Challenging? Yes. But it\u2019s just part of the job. You\u2019re paid for it, you know how much, and you know there are other people involved. So yes, it\u2019s challenging. And Rabot, yes, it was challenging because we hadn\u2019t done it this way before.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> Well, didn\u2019t you? I\u2019m thinking of your volunteering for Le Balto projects now. Wasn\u2019t it something very similar?<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> Yes, but the way we do projects is step by step. We took some of the methods for running and doing interventions from Le Balto, but I think we\u2019ve incorporated more and more participative approaches in our work at BASTA. We\u2019re growing step by step. Every new project is a new step and a new challenge. And when it comes to participatory projects, there\u2019s always a challenge. The question is what participation means in a particular project.<\/p>\n

Our first project \u2013 the Rainbow Garden \u2013 was just a spontaneous action, and the biggest challenge was figuring out how to make a spontaneous interaction happen. Very different now, there\u2019s a new project \u2013 the Textile Museum. It\u2019s really the one where the fashionable word \u201cparticipation\u201d was used from the beginning. It\u2019s a new government here in Kortrijk, and they wanted a participatory process. We didn\u2019t really see how to make this project participatory design. For us, the challenge was to make it useful. There was no way we could build it together with the investors; they could maybe help a bit with the construction.<\/p>\n

We came up with the idea that they could tell their stories about the textile industry \u2013 both the museum and the local residents \u2013 and we would incorporate those stories into the garden. People from the neighborhood can find their stories in the garden, and that way, it becomes their garden too. And for me, that was useful \u00ab\u00a0participation\u00a0\u00bb. This is the main question for us always: what is this \u00ab\u00a0participation\u00a0\u00bb useful for? Why do we do it? If you can answer that question, then you have a good participatory project.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> Do you think participation can be a \u201cwrong\u201d thing under some circumstances? Can it hurt someone or turn the project in the wrong direction?<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> I can\u2019t imagine why. You\u2019re always searching for interaction. If you don\u2019t do it, then there\u2019s a risk that the project will come to the point where it\u2019s too late to react, and then you\u2019ll have problems.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> Is it very intuitive for you to work this way? Involving people so strongly in the project, searching to build a close relationship with the inhabitants? Or is this just how it works in Belgium? I\u2019m wondering if your way of thinking and really doing honestly participatory design projects in different scales and using different methods comes from you, or is it rather something that is regulated by law in Belgium, or always asked by the investor?<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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BB:<\/em> It comes from both sides. There\u2019s always a question, and we react to it while keeping our minds open. We create a dossier that shows who we want to reach with the project, how we\u2019ll do it, and what the goal is. It\u2019s a process scheme we have for the project. And in all phases, we show how we imagine people will be involved. Then it\u2019s really clear for everyone. Some of our earlier projects were done more ad-hoc, but now we always plan it this way and inform the investor about how we imagine the process. And for us as designers, it\u2019s also a way of organizing our work and the amount of hours we spend. This way, you can also easily convince the investor that the participatory design tasks, workshops, and talking to people are a necessary part of your work, just like drawing and designing. If you present it well, they\u2019ll understand. Then, they take you seriously, and people come back to you with new projects.<\/p>\n <\/div>\n\n <\/div>\n \n<\/section>\n\n\n\n

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MT:<\/em> And that\u2019s the recipe for success.<\/p>\n <\/h2>\n

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